FW Advanced Lecture by Twist on 1/27/95 CRC Network
From Twist: ok. Well, get close and fire and they blow up.
There you go!
> ***
Transmaniakon just switched to this channel!
> ***
From Twist: any questions?
> hehe :)
***
From Sherlock: heh
> ***
From Headhunter: !
> ***
From Sluggo: damn
> ***
From Sluggo: that's easier than i thought
> ***
From Twist: yes HH?
> ***
From Headhunter: Will it be a big boom?
> ***
From Twist: that depends on how close you are, of course.
> ***
From Twist: I prefer 150 yds for a nice, even explosion size.
> ***
From Headhunter: <G>
> ;)
-- Message sent --
> ***
From Twist: Ok well for those of you that weren't here last time,
what I went
over
> ***
From Twist: was the basic capabilities of the FW relative to
other planes and
some
> ***
From Twist: simple tips for rules when learning to BnZ it.
> ***
From Twist: Before anybody asks, I'm not going to bother to teach
how to spin
it
> ***
From Sluggo: good
> ***
From Twist: as a weapon, so there. However, this time we'll be
getting into
more of
> ***
From Twist: the energy fighting instead of just BnZ.
> ***
From Twist: In energy fighting a plane, you don't necessarily
always use a
straight
> ***
From Twist: boom/zoom approach. You attempt to use maneuvers and
your relative
energy
> ***
From Twist: state to get the other guy in your front quarter. A
BnZ is just a
very basic
> ***
From Twist: energy maneuver, but there's a lot more you can do
with your speed.
> ***
From Twist: (and alt of course)
> ***
From Twist: Now it so happens that the FW, along with the
Corsair, is my
favorite plane
> ***
From Twist: to pull this kind of stuff in. It's got all the right
characteristics for it
> ***
From Twist: high roll rate, fast. Only thing it's missing is
climb (sigh).
> ***
> ***
From Twist: Energy tactics are often much harder to visualize
than
stallfighting.
> ***
From Twist: In a stallfight, you're basically just getting your
lift vector on
the other
> ***
From Twist: guy and tuggin away. in an energy fight you often
have to think 2-3
"moves"
> ***
From Twist: ahead and plan a sequence that will leave the enema
helpless and
you in
> ***
From Twist: control.
> ***
From Twist: A good example of this is the hammerhead/spiral climb
type of
attack.
> ***
From Twist: Unlike a stallfight you deliberately point your nose
AWAY from teh
opponent
> ***
From Twist: and use your higher E-state to sucker him into a
helpless (slow)
position,
> ***
From Twist: THEN you turn on him and kill him.
> ***
From Twist: The reason this maneuver is difficult is
E-assessment. It's not
particular
> ***
From Twist: to the FW, it's a skill you need in all planes.
You've got to be
able to
> ***
From Twist: look at your opponent and get a guess of what his
E-state is, both
speed and
> ***
From Twist: alt.
> ***
From Twist: Now, alt is pretty easy, so we won't go into that,
but speed is
different.
> ***
From Twist: How do you determine an opponents speed vs. yours?
Well, the only
piece of
> ***
From Twist: information you have that will help you here is the
closure rate.
> ***
From Twist: It's very imprecise but you need to be able to guess
off it. For
instance,
> ***
From Twist: in a very simple case if you are co-alt, there is
enema behind you,
and he
> ***
From Twist: is closing, then he obviously has a higher E-state
than you do.
> ***
From Twist: <this assumes he follows in the same compass
direction as you>
> ***
From Twist: If you're going OPPOSITE him and he is closing, well
that could
mean you're
> ***
From Twist: better off or worse than he is. You need more
information - exactly
what is
> ***
From Twist: his heading relative to you, so that you can
adequately determine
what's
> ***
From Twist: going on.
> ***
From Twist: Unfortunately there is no cut-and-dry system of
teaching speed
assessment.
> ***
From Twist: There is a very useful tool for it though - film your
engagements
as much
> ***
From Twist: as you can, go back to them and view them, try to
guess the
relative speed
> ***
From Twist: of your enemas in con, and then (if you have it)
watch the same
film in
> ***
From Twist: Vfilm, because it can tell you the speed of the
opponent.
> ***
From Twist: This is actually what I use it for most often.
> ***
From Transmaniakon: !
> ***
From Twist: <I know some of you don't have vfilm, and
unfortunately I know of
know good
> ***
> ***
From Twist: way to get the speed of an enema within AW itself>
> ***
From Twist: GA TK.
***
From Transmaniakon: r u gonna take over vfilm and fix it?
> ***
From Twist: That's the current plan, but I haven't gotten source
from Dale yet
> ***
From Twist: <sips drink>
> ***
From Transmaniakon: full sail ale here :)
> ***
From Twist: ok. one of the abilities of the FW that works really
well for some
of
> ***
From Headhunter: !
> ***
From Twist: these manuevers is that it can pull a really _mean_
split-s.
> ***
From Twist: GA HH.
> ***
From Headhunter: Any tips on maintaining E in an Fw? I always
seem to blow it
with just a few turns. I'm not the best at keeping E overall,
>>
> H ***
From Headhunter: but I aint a total slouch either. Fw just seems
to elude me.
ga
> ***
From Twist: cc FW is a pretty bad e-bleed plane, no way around
that. Worse, it
only has
> ***
From Twist: mediocre acceleration, so after you blow your speed,
it's hard to
get it back.
> ***
From Twist: Very simply most people pull way to hard to get some
basic
maneuvers done.
> ***
From Headhunter: Does zero-g'ing it help any?
> ***
From Twist: Helps it extend, but you loose some alt of course.
> ***
From Twist: One thing to keep in mind about the Fw is if you want
to fly it
properly
> ***
From Headhunter: Does it gain alot for excelleration that way or
not worth it?
> ***
From Twist: you should view yourself as having a hard deck. For
beginners I
place this
> ***
From Twist: around 10-8K, for experienced around 5K. Nah it still
accels poorly
HH :-)
> ***
From Headhunter: hehehe, cc.
> ***
From Twist: Spit for instance will chew a FW up in no time at
level accel up to
250kts.
> ***
From Twist: ok, well if you keep your deck alt in mind, if you
run out of speed
to pull
> ***
From Twist: maneuvers, just bleed some off by diving a bit or
doing negative
alt
> ***
From Twist: maneuvers. If you're solo against a stallfighter it's
not going to
matter
> ***
From Twist: too much, he'll just blow his speed quickly by
turning hard when
you to the
> ***
From Twist: new plateau alt.
> ***
From Twist: It's possible to use the FWs bleed against the
opponent, which I
discussed
> ***
From Headhunter: Hmmm... OK, I'll just stick with my Yak then.
<G> Thx! :)
> ***
From Twist: somewhat in the basic part. For instance if a FW and
a Spit are
doing
> ***
From Twist: low yo-yos a lot, the FW can and will gain angles on
the spit if
handled
> ***
From Twist: right, for two reasons - it blows speed more when
pointed down,
making
> ***
From Malloy: !
> ***
From Twist: it's turn radius tighter, and at the tip of the yo-yo
it can get
rolled
> ***
From Twist: over a lot faster. Ga Malloy.
> ***
From Malloy: This feature can be useful for closing a fight if
you can sucker
them into following you into
> ***
From Malloy: a Split-S; the FW can recover at higher initial
speeds than most
other planes, which auger
> ***
From Malloy: ..ga
> ***
From Bummer: !
> ***
From Twist: cc very true. If you get stuck on the floor and
you're completely
out of
> ***
From Twist: options, roll over at 130kts, click flaps twice and
split-s. Fun to
watch
> ***
From Twist: spits follow you and slam into the turf.
> ***
From Twist: Ga Bummer.
> ***
From Bummer: Twist did you say above that the FW bleeds speed
worse goinng
DOWN?...
> ***
From Bummer: that doesn't seem logical. ga
> ***
From Twist: Nobody said logic had to apply in AW. heh. Actually,
it is logical,
but
> ***
From Twist: you have to look at several components. The basic
reason it works
is the
> ***
From Twist: FW on the downside portion of the split-s bleeds
speed like crazy,
in fact
> ***
From Twist: bleeds all the extra speed it gains from the dive
portion. A Spit
for instance
> ***
From Twist: can't HELP but gain speed in a split-s, even with his
engine cut,
resulting
> ***
From Twist: in a larger turn radius for him (faster = larger
radius).
> ***
From Twist: Say you have two cars, one a big buick and the other
a ferrari. The
ferrari
> ***
From Twist: can obviously out turn the buick, but let's say the
both are on a
big flat
> ***
From Twist: parking lot and they both start a turn at 100MPH. The
Buick is
allowed to
> ***
From Twist: slow down but the Ferrari has to keep going 100 - who
gets 180
degrees around
> ***
From Twist: faster? The buick.
> ***
From Twist: This is actually a key element in catching all kinds
of
stallfighters. They
> ***
From Bummer: Ahhhh, you mean it bleeds faster relative to the
other planes?
> ***
From Twist: cc you got it.
> ***
From Twist: well except the yak.
> ***
From Bummer: Good explanation, the cars
***
From Transmaniakon: I can outturn a buick in a ferrari :)
> ***
From Twist: Anyway a stallfighter will always assume he can
outturn you, but
it's not
> ***
From Twist: always true.
> ***
From Twist: The trick to it is you have to see the opportunity
and make it
happen fast,
> ***
From Twist: because you get maybe 180 degrees before your hosed
and the
Spit/whatever
> ***
From Twist: is able to use his turn ability better because he's
going slow
enough.
> ***
From Twist: High speed turns work well against Spits, 109s, and
even 51s if you
go a
> ***
From Twist: little into negative alt. They don't work well
against Yaks or P38s
who know
> ***
From Twist: what they are doing (P38 has air brakes).
> ***
From Twist: Anybody downloaded ROPEDOPE.ZIP?
> ***
> ***
From Sherlock: Yep
> ***
From Sluggo: cc
> ***
From Kkraatz: cc
> ***
From Robinhood: cc
> ***
From Twist: ok, well if you haven't you might want to check it
out. I'm in a
spit in
> ***
From Twist: that one but the plane I actually use that most with
is the FW. The
basic
> ***
From Twist: idea being that you hook an opponent by diving
through on him, get
him to
> ***
From Twist: follow you as you go into zoom, and you zoom him
until he's
completely out
> ***
From Twist: of speed, come over the top and keel him. FW is great
for this
because you
> ***
From Twist: can get it reversed real quickly.
> ***
From Twist: If you're climbing 45 degrees and you've bleed the
guy behind you
dry, you
> ***
From Malloy: As long as you can take the time to recover the
speed you blow
getting around.
> ***
From Twist: just roll over, flap and pull one of those split-s's.
You'll be
coming
> ***
From Twist: right down on him while he's helpless.
> full flaps?
-- Message sent --
> ***
From Twist: it depends, I often use them for a split-s but only
momentarily.
Full flaps
> cc
-- Message sent --
> ***
From Twist: on FW is a MAJOR bleed.
> cc
-- Message sent --
> ***
> ***
From Twist: Keep in mind FW doesn't have 1/4 flaps so you can't
be just
slamming them
> ***
From Malloy: Even 'one' click is a fair bit of drag
> ***
From Twist: back and forth all the time.
> ***
From Twist: Also, unlike some planes the FW doesn't really give
you anything
back when
> ***
From Twist: you unflap, so you can't "flap yourself up"
like you can with the
38/a26/
> ***
From Twist: etc
> ***
From Twist: If you're doing rope-a-dope type moves, check your
closure when you
get to
> ***
From Twist: about 150kts yourself. If he's closing on you, you
probably hosed
it. You
> ***
From Twist: can ride the FW down to about 75kts, but you need to
pull _only_
vertically
> ***
From Twist: at that speed, because if you tilt the nose it's
going to spin like
hell.
> ***
From Twist: If you have no closure or better yet a little
seperation building
at 150kts
> ***
From Malloy: You _can_ tilt if the plane's in zero-G, tho.. but
it's tricky
> ***
From Twist: on your dial, just start watching him from the rear
view (I usually
roll on
> ***
From Twist: my back right at this point) and wait for him to
peter out.
> ***
From Twist: cc Sean but it's asking for trouble. If you're
rope-a-doping
shouldn't have to
> ***
From Twist: anyway. Just get yourself completely perpendicular to
the ground
and pull towards
> ***
From Twist: earth; FW is always happy to fall out of the sky for
you :-)
> ***
From Twist: er not perp, parallel.
> ***
From Twist: wings parallel, lift vector perpendicular. You know
what I mean.
> ***
From Twist: <takes another drink>
> ***
From Transmaniakon: !
> ***
From Twist: Ok. any questions on Rope a dope?
> ***
From Twist: ga TK
> ***
From Transmaniakon: NOt rope-adope...
> ***
From Twist: ga anyway
> ***
From Bummer: !
> ***
From Transmaniakon: what not to do on a merge... on a coalt spit
for example?
> ***
From Malloy: Don't go for alt...
> ***
From Twist: cc worst thing is to immediately go into hard zoom
> ***
From Twist: ok, let's look at that case. Bummer, we'll get o you
in a sec
> ***
From Bummer: cc
> ***
From Twist: First and most obviously you try to get nose-to-nose
with him. I
personally
> ***
From Twist: pretty much never fire on head ons, but you have to
give him the
least
> ***
From Twist: percentage shot, because you never know what the dweeb is thinking.
> ***
From Twist: Second, check your speed. If you're going 225 or
better, you can
think
> ***
From Twist: pretty offensively. If you're going less than that
you'd better be
prepared
> ***
From Twist: to react defensively after the merge, because the
advantage is all
his.
From Twist: Now my personal favorite is when you're both
really cruising. Spit
is doing
> ***
From Twist: maybe 275, you're doing 300. This is a great set up.
> ***
From Twist: You let the spit merge, and then watch him in rear
view. If he
breaks in
> ***
> ***
From Twist: the horizontal, roll opposite the direction of his
break about
20-45 degrees
> ***
From Twist: and pull a high yo-yo. After you get used to the FW
you'll be able
to get a
> ***
From Twist: shot out of this every time. Just takes way to long
for the spit to
come around
> ***
From Twist: a circle when he's going fast, and you are going to
pull a very
small radius
> ***
From Transmaniakon: !
> ***
From Twist: yo-yo because of your bleed and the ability to pull
hard initial
Gs.
> ***
From Twist: ga TK
> ***
From Transmaniakon: how often are u going 300k on a merge?
> ***
From Malloy: Remember reversal of image in mirror -- roll is
_toward_ side Spit
appears to be turning (blew that a few times too often)
> ***
From Transmaniakon: err 300 kts
> ***
From Twist: not too often really. I usually view my preferred
merge as 250kts.
> ***
From Transmaniakon: cc what about that case?
> ***
From Twist: 300 gives you a few more options tho, if you CAN do
it, don't be
shy about it.
> ***
From Twist: I do same things at 250 - but I tend to gamble
anyway.
***
From Transmaniakon: !
> ***
From Twist: Sean also correct about rear view, keep that in mind
<ancient AW
argument there>
> ***
From Twist: ga
> ***
From Transmaniakon: what if he gets the angles on merge...
intitially?
> ***
From Transmaniakon: err initially
> ***
From Transmaniakon: hehe he said tit <G>
> ***
From Twist: If he's in front of your 3-9 line it's not a big
deal. If he can
get
> ***
From Twist: rear aspect at merge, you screwed up somehow :-) and
outta think
about
> ***
From Twist: getting him confused before you attack...in other
words, think hard
about
> ***
From Twist: going defensive with negative alt evasives.
> ***
From Transmaniakon: !
> ***
From Twist: ga
> ***
From Transmaniakon: I use split-s as escape maneuver...
> ***
From Transmaniakon: what about spit that follows by chopping
throttle?
From Twist: you need to pull less Gs and keep higher speeds,
then won't matter
if
> ***
From Twist: spit chops or not, you can get away from him.
From Twist: people _way_ overestimate the ability of the Spit.
> ***
From Twist: If I am alone against a single Spit and I have 5K of
alt, it's _my_
fault
> ***
From Twist: if I die in a FW. He doesn't have the kind of plane
to catch me.
> ***
From Twist: The worst thing in a Fw is to be caught by a
stallfighter and
another FW or 51.
> ***
From Twist: You're kinda hosed if the FW/51 is smart and just
starts moving
towards your
> ***
From Twist: obvious egress direction (if there is one) while
keeping his speed
up.
> ***
From Twist: When this happens to me I usually egress in an
unusual direction -
towards
> ***
From Twist: enema territory for instance.
> ***
From Twist: better than dying while trying to run back home
> ***
From Twist: Anyway I went over evasives in the basic part, take a
look at that
- although
> ***
From Twist: I will say that I never pull canned evasives, and I
almost never
pull a "classic"
> ***
From Twist: maneuver in any sense of the word - I'll start a
split-s, but I
won't follow
> ***
From Twist: it through 180 degrees, too predictable. Besides, you
don't use
your superior
> ***
From Twist: roll rate that way.
> ***
From Twist: What I'll do is start out by assessing my alt
(telling me how hard
I can
> ***
From Twist: point the nose down) and mentally thinking of my
position and what
my
> ***
From Malloy: If you can roll while your opponent is changing
views, it's free
separation
> ***
***
From Twist: egress direction should be - then I start a series of
low-G nose
down banking
From Twist: turns with a few quick snap-rolls, always mentally
working my way
towards
> ***
From Twist: my pre-determined egress dir.
> ***
From Twist: Bad thing to do is get fixated on trying to watch
your pursuit in
the rear view.
> ***
From Twist: Sort of like deer with light in your eyes, keeps you
from flying
the plane to its max.
> ***
From Malloy: And the cumulogranite clouds wait for you to forget
about them...
> ***
From Twist: ok, well we never finished with our spit
<stallfighter, doesn't
matter>
> bummer had a question i think
***
From Twist: if he breaks horizontal, he should die. Yours for the
taking.
> -- Message sent --
> ***
From Bummer: The rope-a-dope: won't work on a 109 will it?
> ***
From Twist: If he breaks negative, should be same deal - but I
usually go into
a sligght
> ***
From Twist: zoom and see if he'll bite on rope-a-dope.
> ***
From Twist: You can rope any plane bummer, but 109 has best
sustained climb
around.
> ***
From Malloy: Like so much else, it depends on relative E
> ***
From Bummer: that's why I asked, thought they would climb at 45
deg. forever
> ***
From Twist: Just means you've got the extra careful about
closure.
> ***
From Twist: Naw they can climb well but they don't have rocket
assist.
> ***
From Twist: Your worst opponent in a rope-a-dope is a canny one
who hides his
speed.
> ***
From Twist: I do this a lot in spits, I'll fly after extending
e-fighters with
like a
> ***
From Twist: 3.5K/min climb rate, but at a steady 250-275 kts. If
they mistake
and try
> ***
From Twist: to rev to come back in, I zoom right into them and
they either die
or run away.
> ***
From Twist: Luckily most stallfighters are pretty stupid and will
go around
doing max
> ***
From Twist: speed zooms most of the time.
> ***
From Twist: It's for above reason that I usually spiral climb on
my rope a
dopes, because
> ***
From Twist: you force stallfighter to turn with you usually, and
if he has
extra speed it
> ***
From Twist: will show up in the turn (wide turn)
> ***
From Twist: ok back to our merging stallfighter :-)
> ***
From Twist: he breaks horizontal, he dies. He breaks negative
alt, he dies -
maybe a little
> ***
From Twist: later. If he pulls Immel or if he high yo-yos, oops.
smarter than
the average
> ***
From Twist: bear, especially if you see him low-G the pull so he
gets a lot of
zoom out of
> ***
> ***
From Twist: the manuever. If this happens, think about just
pulling a level
extend. He
***
From Twist: won't be able to catch you if you're doing the
aforementioned
300kts and you
> ***
From Twist: don't start heaving the plane around.
> ***
From Transmaniakon: !
> ***
From Twist: ga
> ***
From Transmaniakon: so if he goes up on the merge... is best to
run?
> ***
From Twist: depends on whether you want to go for highest
percentage of living.
> ***
From Twist: if you do, yeah, is best to extend. If not, turn and
attck..is what
I do ;-)
> ***
From Transmaniakon: ehehe
> hehe
-- Message sent --
> ***
From Twist: if it's me and this happens, I usually will try
banking negative,
get him to
> ***
From Transmaniakon: ok he goes up... nose down turns to bring him
down?
> ***
From Twist: dive down to me, and then play split-s around the
circle games with
him. If
> ***
From Twist: I get to my deck alt I try to evade and extend. Cc,
nose down -if
he has already
> ***
From Twist: pulled up vertically and then you try any kind of
vertical up
afterwards, you
> ***
From Twist: are setting yourself up pretty bad.
> ***
From Twist: unless you are REALLY hauling.
> ***
From Malloy: !
> ***
From Twist: if I go down and he tries to follow me down, he gets
going fast
again and
> ***
From Twist: is back to a wide turn radius. I usually try
combination split-s's
or barrel
> ***
From Twist: rolls to get a shot. Ga sean.
> ***
From Malloy: One thing I notice looking at _Shaw_ (the book) is
that a lot of
the engagement maneuvers rely on starting _before_ the pass
> ***
Shadownyc just joined this channel!
> ***
From Malloy: in order to make them work, but I don't see that in
the arena;
would this be an artifact of the lower speeds for WWII planes?
> ***
From Twist: I've thought about that and I think it's a product of
the
difference in
> ***
From Twist: weapons systems. We've got guns only; and a really
porked hit
model. So
> ***
From Twist: people use tactics that are exagerrated to provide
the least %
aspect
> ***
From Twist: when possible.
> ***
From Malloy: I guess I'll have to ask him tomorrow...
> ***
From Twist: This a nose-to-nose merge in AW is the best you can
get, in real
life it's suicide.
> ***
From Sluggo: tuesday
> ***
From Malloy: see what he says...
> ***
From Twist: maybe he's just wrong :-). seriously, we don't have
any kind of
long range
> ***
From Twist: delivery system, so I think it's pretty much that.
> ***
From Transmaniakon: Gotta go Twist... thanks for lesson!
> ***
From Twist: cc TK later
> ***
Transmaniakon just exited the teleconference.
> cya TK
-- Message sent --
> ***
From Malloy: This was in the guns tactics section. Could be range
for modern
guns, too...
> ***
From Twist: modern guns don't reward you with a huge fuggin hit
bubble from the
rear.
> ***
From Malloy: That's true, too...
> ***
> ***
From Twist: Im sure I'd be much more of a pure BnZ fighter in FW
if we had real
guns.
From Twist: As it is you can blow huge amounts of E (a really
bad idea) for a
single-second
From Twist: rear aspect shot, because if you pull it off, 1
second of FW fire
can kill
> ***
From Twist: anything.
> ***
From Twist: well Im about out of canned topics, anybody got
some general Qs?
> ***
From Bummer: !
> ***
From Twist: ga bummer
> ***
From Bummer: (i missed first session) I can only get about one
good loop...
> ***
From Bummer: out of the FW, but sometimes they outloop me in
multiple loop
fights...
> ***
From Malloy: Sounds like you're pulling too many Gs
> ***
From Bummer: when i'm in a 109. How they doin' that? ga
> ***
From Malloy: FW better in oblique turns than pure vertical
> ***
From Twist: yeah it depends no the loop. If they're doing purely
vertical lops,
> ***
From Twist: and you loose in multiple loop fights, we need to
talk about the
109 some :-)
> ***
From Twist: Now, if you're doing oblique, yo-yo type of loops, FW
can pull some
neat stuff
> ***
From Twist: picture 45 degree oblique loop, 109 does pure circle
in front of
190
> ***
From Twist: if I'm in 190, I follow 109 up part way, snap roll my
lift vector
to where he
> ***
From Twist: will come down on the opposite side when he does, and
flap it and
pull over.
> ***
From Malloy: The trick appears to be restricting the high-G pull
to right as
you come around the corner at the top, when bleed hurts less
> ***
From Twist: yeah if you do that right you're pullin a bit when
you're down to
150-130
> ***
From Twist: kts, probably with flaps, and you come around real
fast and then
unflap/unload
> ***
From Twist: so you can accelerate on the way down.
> ***
From Sluggo: !
> ***
From Twist: ga Sluggo
> ***
From Sluggo: ok
> ***
From Sluggo: any good advice for countering spin-turning
bastages?
> ***
From Malloy: Extend
> ***
From Twist: hehe. It's a problem, no question about it. I've got
a film I'm
thinking
> ***
From Twist: of uploading called SPINWULF.CAM :-). Shows VERY good
use of the FW
as a
> ***
From Twist: complete AW joke (I'm not flying it, im in a spit
fighting it).
> ***
From Malloy: I'd like to see it...
> ***
From Twist: The way I get out of that one is by using really hard
spiral climbs
> ***
From Sluggo: hmmmmm. was it who I think it was ?
> ***
From Twist: and I still take one ping doing it.
> ***
From Twist: probably sluggo. I ain't saying it doesn't work, but
I don't fly
that way.
> ***
From Sluggo: yah me either
> ***
From Sluggo: rather die
> ***
From Twist: It's flying a game instead of flying a simulation,
and I like
simulations.
> ***
From Sherlock: very hard to get away from Drum when he's doing it
> ***
From Malloy: The only positive use I've ever gotten out of a spin
is a
one-burst snapshot I took while _in_ one that got my opponent...
> ***
From Twist: It's possible to deliberately spin the Fw when it's
doing 180kts,
and
> ***
From Twist: recover at exactly the heading you want.
> ***
From Malloy: Force model will wax _his_ ass when it comes up...
don't hold your
breath, though...
> ***
From Malloy: How do you get it _into_ the spin? My spins all seem
to happen at
<100 KIAS
> ***
From Twist: Anyway what I usually do against Spinwulfs is dive to
the absolute
deck
> ***
From Malloy: after I've bled off _way_ too much E
> ***
From Bummer: me too
> ***
From Twist: and then use a lot of climbing turns. I ain't saying
sean - but
play with it
> ***
From Twist: some night, you can do it.
> ***
From Twist: still spinwulfs become very difficult targets because
even if
they're not
> ***
From Twist: good they usually know how to wait until you have a
shot, spin
(roll the dice)
> ***
From Twist: and then recover some random amount of time later.
> ***
From Twist: Try to get above them whenever they do that so you
can keep your
climb against
> ***
From Twist: them.
> ***
From Malloy: If you have the E, a hard pull up, invert, and come
down from
above gives a better shot angle on them
> ***
From Twist: cc exactly.
> ***
From Bummer: !
> ***
From Twist: The one thing that really gets me is people who want
to duel FWs.
This is
> ***
From Twist: almost guaranteed to become a skill-less contest.
> ***
From Twist: ga Bummer
> ***
From Bummer: I just heard the term "spin turn"
recently...
> ***
From Bummer: do i understand this deliberate spinning is an
established art?
> ***
From Bummer: ga
> ***
From Twist: you understand correctly. The problem with it is it's
used as an
OFFENSIVE
> ***
From Twist: maneuver, not a defensive one, and that's defintely
wrong. What
people are
> ***
From Twist: doing is capatalizing on the things that are screwed
up with the AW
spin "model":
> ***
From Twist: 1) you can spin above stall speed 2) you can recover
from spins at
above stall speed
> ***
Porn just vanished!
> ***
Headhunter just vanished!
> ***
From Bummer: ruh ro
> ruh roh
***
From Malloy: Dumps...
> ***
From Twist: and 3) recovery can be timed to deliberately leave
you on a
particular heading
> ***
From Sluggo: hmmmm
> -- Message sent --
> ***
Headhunter just joined this channel!
> ***
***
From Twist: Spins can be used and were used as evasives in WWII,
there are
written
> ***
From Twist: examples with JG26 for example. They also write how
they lost 5-10K
doing
> ***
From Twist: this and it was an absolute last-ditch maneuver.
> !
***
From Malloy: Whereas the FW spin recovery can be done in <200
feet if you do it
exactly right
> ***
Porn just joined this channel!
> ***
From Rld: !
> -- Message sent --
> ***
From Twist: ga Nor (i think)
> ***
From Rld: yea, this is Nor, what is typical climb rate for spiral
climb?
> ***
From Twist: depends on plane, in Fw I use very low 2-4Gs, never
more than about
45 degrees.
> ***
From Twist: If you get going to steep your ruin the point of
making the turns.
> ***
From Rld: cc tnxs
> ***
From Twist: hmmm terrible english there. hic.
> ***
From Twist: anybody got anything else?
> ***
From Malloy: Certainly gives me some ideas to take to the arenas;
thanks,
Twist...
> ***
From Twist: what is minimum alt you can split-s the FW?
> yeah wat is it ***
From Robinhood: Thanks Twist...Great job.
.
> ***
From Sluggo: hmmmm under 1k feet for sure
> ***
From Malloy: I've done it under 1000', but that was extreme case
> ***
From Headhunter: 5 feet. But to be succesful, I recommend a bit
higher. <G>
> ***
From Malloy: I think I was about 600', slow, full flaps
> ***
From Twist: you have to know this before you can be advanced :-)
> ***
From Sluggo: heheh
***
From Sluggo: htere's more?
***
From Malloy: hehe
From Twist: seriously, practice split-s off line with starting
speed ~130kts
and flaps on and off.
> ***
From Sluggo: learn not to pull wings off 26 1st merch
> ***
From Twist: you'll be surprised. And I ain't gonna tell you, you
have to find
out hehe.
> aw shucks :(
***
From Malloy: And keep descending until you stop being able to try
again?
> -- Message sent --
> ***
From Robinhood: hehe
> ***
From Kkraatz: heh
> !
-- Message sent --
> ***
From Twist: yeah my practice sessions are always "how many
can I make from this
alt, 2,3?"
> ***
From Twist: ga Merch
> hehe
-- Message sent --
> who is malloy? ;)
***
From Hotrail: Good class Twist! Thanks...goodnight all
> -- Message sent --
> ***
From Robinhood: Nite HR
> ***
From Malloy: I'm Shiva online
> ***
From Headhunter: Shiva
> cc thnx
-- Message sent --
> ***
From Porn: nite HR
From Hotrail: thanks Merch:)
> ***
From Porn: SkinFlick here
> ***
From Twist: he reads 666th list, he's already heard most of my
tricks anyway
> ***
From Shadownyc: nity nite HR
> -- Message sent --
> ***
From Headhunter: Thanks a bunch Twist, very informative! :)
> ***
From Hotrail: hehe <poop>
> ***
Hotrail just exited the teleconference.
> ***
From Bummer: Yes thanks a lot, bye
> ***
From Porn: Good class Twist
> ***
From Malloy: Actually, I dropped off 666th list when I got
riffed, and now the
server
> ***
From Kkraatz: Thanx Twist
> ***
From Twist: thanks, now everybody go forth and keel
> ***
Bummer just exited the teleconference.
> ***
From Malloy: won't add me back -- I'm going to have to post to
the list asking
to be added
> ***
From Kkraatz: Will try anyway :)
> just hope i donr 't run into u
***
From Rld: tnx Twist, see ya later
> ***
From Headhunter: Sure Twist, but I still gonna use my Yak.
<G>
> -- Message sent --
> ***
From Porn: I keel when I get home from work <G>
> ***
From Twist: hehe me too HH, it's a good plane.
> lose the yak hh :)
***
From Shadownyc: I hope so HH <G>
> ***
From Twist: Just wish it had ammo.
> -- Message sent --
> ***
From Sluggo: gonna go downtown, keel a couple beers
> ***
From Headhunter: Yeah, can't wait for the revision they gonna put
on it. <G>
> ***
From Malloy: I finally got over 1:1 K:D for a camp flying the FW
almost
exclusively
> ***
From Sluggo: me too
> ***
From Malloy: Not making the mistakes I used to...
> my mistake is no he ard deck :(
***
From Headhunter: Why should I Merch? ;)
> ***
From Malloy: I'm landing two- and three-kill missions a _lot_
more often
> -- Message sent --
> ***
From Kkraatz: I wish I could say that :(
> ***
From Twist: My FW K/D record involves division by zero (back when
I cared).
> hehe HH jus kiddin
***
From Headhunter: Just cause I cant keep up with you to where ever
we're going?
<G>
> -- Message sent --
> ***
From Twist: problem is you need to fly a fair amount to have a
hang on the
E-assessment stuff
> ***
From Malloy: I look at my K/D ratio as an indicator of how often
I hang out in
a fight after I should have left
> ***
From Sluggo: still enough of a dweeb to care a little, not enough
to bail to
preserve it
> i hear that
-- Message sent --
> ***
From Headhunter: Heheh, I look at my K/D as something to get
pissed off about.
:P
> ***
From Twist: bailers are dweebs
> yeah they are
-- Message sent --
> ***
From Malloy: I had to bail last Wed; rebuilt system with new
sound card (SB
Pro), and the
> ***
From Sluggo: want to use dusty's filmtool to make a star-studded,
all bailer
spectacular
> ***
From Twist: only time I'm tempted are engine, elev reams
> ***
From Malloy: stall horn was freezing my screen for two seconds
every time it
blew; plane was worse than uncontrollable.
> ***
From Porn: I was going to ask ya about that
> everyone gonna be here for shaw?
***
From Headhunter: My only time is when I know GB is on my 6.
<G>
> ***
From Twist: and I still don't do it :-). Sluggo you should just
kill them.
> -- Message sent --
> hehe
-- Message sent --
> ***
From Robinhood: cc
> ***
From Twist: Check out KILLCHUT.CAM in the GEnie archives; still a
classic.
> ***
From Sherlock: hopefully
> ***
From Kkraatz: I will definitely
> i'll get it
-- Message sent --
> ***
From Sluggo: Oh I do
> ***
From Shadownyc: I will
> ***
From Malloy: Bailed, turned off horn, came back. Still unhappy
with SB Pro
drivers
> shaw is quite a character... you will enjoy
***
From Porn: When shaw comming on"
> ***
From Sluggo: tuesday night