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E-Fighting (Lecture by DeadDuck)

*** From Hocuspocus: Ahhh hello all > Okay, folks - the topic tonight is Energy Management, and your instructor is DeadDuck...

From Hocuspocus: Thanks! and for my FIRST trick Ill fake knowing how to fly >

*** From Hocuspocus: Ok... was talking a bit to HR here..... >

*** From Hocuspocus: and I asked this question: >

*** From Hocuspocus: "What does E fighting mean to you" >

*** From Hocuspocus: Anyone want to take a shot at it? >

*** From Hocuspocus: Hmmmm > *** From Hocuspocus: Ok Ill answer:) >

*** From Kkraatz: I'm just a dweeb :) >

*** From Hocuspocus: E fighting is _MANAGING_ your planes energy state in order to gain... >

*** From Hocuspocus: ... a favorable fight situation >

*** From Hocuspocus: Even if ur a perfect at the E fighting part a lucky ******** can still kill... >

*** From Hocuspocus: ... you, but E mangment is the basis for ACM >

*** From Hocuspocus: Since Im to do this as a 2 parter.. >

** From Hocuspocus: Im going to break this into: >

*** From Hocuspocus: Managing your own E >

*** From Hocuspocus: ....and.... >

*** From Hocuspocus: How to manage someone ELSEs E >

*** From Hocuspocus: Part 2 is subtitled "Killing Spits in a 38" > hehehe >

*** From Shadownyc: hehe >

*** From Merchant: hehe >

*** From Hocuspocus: Ok definitions: >

*** From Hocuspocus: You have turn fighting, B&Z, and E fighting From Hocuspocus: Last 2 are NOT the same >

*** From Hocuspocus: to me a turn fight is a Yank the stick back, turn till u puke fight >

*** From Hocuspocus: May the onethat rides the edge better win >

*** Jrhillman just joined this channel!

*** From Hocuspocus: B&Z is when you blow by the enemy and hope he lets you get a shot >

*** >

*** From Hocuspocus: E fighting is Dogfighting, ACM or Air Combat Manuvering >

*** From Hocuspocus: First tip Ill give is this: >

*** From Hocuspocus: "You can go to fast!" >

*** From Hocuspocus: Beyond a certain point additional speed or alt is at best meaningless.... >

*** From Hocuspocus: ...or at worst a handicap >

*** From Hocuspocus: Example: >

*** From Hocuspocus: Say you are in a FW >

*** From Hocuspocus: you dive on an unsuspecting Spit.... >

*** From Hocuspocus: You doing 400, hes doing 200 and at 2000 yards he breaks..... >

*** From Hocuspocus: Guess cant follow him >

*** From Hocuspocus: Imagine same pass if FW is doing, say 250 or 275 >

*** From Hocuspocus: E managment is partially setting up the situation so you can take advantage >

*** From Hocuspocus: Id throttle back and be ready for the break >

*** From Hocuspocus: QUestions? > *** From Hotrail: ! >

*** From Shadownyc: ! >

*** From Hocuspocus: GA Hot >

*** From Hotrail: ok >

*** From Hotrail: I have been trootling back as of late....BUT what if you miss? >

*** From Hocuspocus: u next Shad >

*** From Hocuspocus: Ahh good question > trootling? >>

*** From Hocuspocus: this is were SA comes in.... >

*** From Hocuspocus: Killer DOESNT miss:) From Hocuspocus: BUT.... this is why you want to be doing 250 or so...if you follow him into turn and miss, blank, blackout, ect....DONT play the Spits game of turning...(Unless your me)

> *** From Merchant: :) >

*** From Hocuspocus: ...unload and set up for next run. Granted a spitter that knows his stuff will whittle down the edge

From Hotrail: ok thanks >

*** From Hocuspocus: Key here is that a FW bleeds E more rapidly than Spit under G induced drag so DONT:) > *** From Shadownyc: HR asked my ques (this mental telepathy thing is workin for me) >

*** From Hocuspocus: haha >

*** From Hocuspocus: GA Merch >

*** From Merchant: let me get this straight... if im in fw divin on a single lone spit... keep speed belo 300? >

*** From Hocuspocus: ....wellll.... We talking perfect world.: ie no outside vulchers:) Its not "below 300"..... its "Fast enough so that YOU choose fight"....and slow enough to have options >

*** From Hocuspocus: More than one... Thats a rough one.... >

**** From Hocuspocus: It depends... but try to get one dead or diving out of fight from Hocuspocus: and you have a smaller edge because each time u engage one.... the other starts chipping away at ur edge. basically STAY ALERT (world needs more lerts) > *

*** From Jrhillman: I come from the world of F3, and I have a bad habit of wanting to lay the plane on it's side and pull g's until I get into the elbow. Only prob is that in AW the planes are all too d*mn (can I say that) slow to work that way. What shld I be doing?

*** From Hocuspocus: Ahhhh a jet puke:)

> *** From Jrhillman: Yeah, and those "jets" in AW are *not* jets!

*** From Hocuspocus: Big diff ( u know it:) is that planes bleed speed in high G turns to fast.. and are to underpowered to maintain max Gs.

*** From Hocuspocus: Every prop plane has a "sweet spot" where it TURNS!......part of E fighting is to know that spot, get to it and hold it for ..long enough to get kill. Part of the trick is using flaps and throttle...part is, if you are in a B&Z plane, knowing when to unload and book

*** From Hocuspocus: What do u fly normally? >

*** From Jrhillman: Er, sorry... I prefer the P-38 (bad choice I hear) or the Spit >

*** From Hocuspocus: Ahhhh P-38... GOOD choice:) >

*** From Jrhillman: Fun to fly, but it's a lead magnet from what I've seen, course that could just be my technique ;)

*** From Hocuspocus: let me guess...u start turning and end up with enemy wrapping around on you?

*** From Jrhillman: Not just wrapping, they smother me >

*** From Hocuspocus: P-38 has 5 GOOD points...... Very good acceleration from standing startSuberb flaps > *** Dive brakes Wonderfull Vertical performance nd a wicked instantaneous turn It rolls like a pig tho....and is a bullet magnet

*** From Jrhillman: Gee, that'd the only downside? >

*** From Hocuspocus: Trick to 38 is to NOT, get into flat turns with it. Once you master the flaps...... NOTHING can loop with a 38, not even the Spit >

*** From Merchant: hmmmmm :)

> *** From Jrhillman: How many notches of flaps in a nice close knife fight? I'd think more than

> *** From Hocuspocus: And at about (guessing here) 170 knots a 38 can whip around on anything....

> *** From Jrhillman: one would bleed too much e, but I'm just a dweeb

From Hocuspocus: No one setting.... what your trying to do (E fighting thing) is keep......the 38 at max turn. Heres a typical attack Ill do: See Spit co alt, Spit sees me. We turn into each other We 're both doing 250-275 so I HIT AIRBRAKES Decreasing turn radius and maintaining max Gs.... : As I slow and I can maitain turn.... I pop a notch of flaps as I slow more another notch and another ok Im getting worried here.... 1 sec ...I use rudder to nose down..... getting this into a nose down turn... Now Im at max flaps and If I havent killed spit I know that I will Kill him soon because 38 with full flaps and about 10 deg nose down...will stay right at ideal turn speed while the Spit will start picking up speed and its turn will increas till I come around on it. Key is to not just use a single flap setting or stay in a flat turn

*** From Jrhillman: Thanks HP. I'll give it a try, but it's tough not yanking the stick back in the turns. >

*** From Hocuspocus: hehe >

*** From Merchant: wow im gonna try a 38... :)... >

*** From Hocuspocus: QUACK!!! >

*** From Merchant: is it better to use airbrakes on planes that haveem... >

*** From Blackpanther: Figgers DD would be yaking about 38's in here :)

> *** From Hocuspocus: Sad thing is with hit bubble u fly perfect and still die >

*** From Merchant: instead of choppin throttle? >

*** From Hocuspocus: Answer to that is whatever works for u. Brake is another option, that all >

*** From Shadownyc: If ur maintaining a corner speed in 38... by keeping the nose low, what if the spit is above u...I would be

*** From Hocuspocus: This were E fighting become important.... >

*** From Hocuspocus: assumption ONE is that the Spit is locked in turn with you..and follows you down. Assumption TWO is that he doesnt start above you. When I satrt losing angles to slower (tighter) turning 38... >

*** From Shadownyc: I'll go over the top to get them back...what then? GA >

*** From Hocuspocus: Rgr as soon as you go over top I kick rudder DOWN.... ...reel in flaps and loop up to meet you..... Odds are Ill catch you going up >

*** From Shadownyc: hehe...maybe :) Done >

*** From Hocuspocus: Remeber Im watching you in a 1 on 1 >

From Hocuspocus: Key point is that if you start in bad situation..... it always is >

*** From Shadownyc: hehe >

*** From Hocuspocus: .... it will rarely get better:) >

*** From Hocuspocus: In a FW keep your speed 50 knots faster than Spits.... In a 38 get em to turn nose low with you or loop with you... > In a Ki just yank the stick back and eat em:)...E managment means YOU pick the speed and attitude of your fight!

From Hocuspocus: If you're in a Ki dont try to climb to F4z keep speed and wait for mistake >

*** From Hocuspocus: If you are in an F4 USE that better climb an F4 at 100 knots can spiral climb on a Ki and kill it easyTrick is to force the Ki to climb (it cant) F4 use E better climbing... Ki is terrible E fighter... bleeds E like a pig YAK is another.... force it to fight in vertical. Otoh an F6F will climb right up your rear and rip your tail off >

*** From Hocuspocus: Anyone here know of Frog? The P-47 fanatic >

*** From Shadownyc: I knew toad...close enuff? >

*** From Hocuspocus: hehe > *** From Merchant: yeah i know him >

*** From Cld: i know frog > ***

From Hocuspocus: Ok Frog is a LOUSEY pilot.......yet he and I are about even in killing each other From even tho I hunt him in F6Fs and Kis s his P47. Reason is that Frog fights his P-47 within its envelope And he is patient...not a runner...just waits for YOU to screw up10 seconds after I lock up with him he dies.... IF I lock up:) in P-47 you watch for enemies above you.... stay 300 knots or better...and dont waste ammo : Easy enough, but hard to do in practice:)

*** From Hocuspocus: I babbling here... lets get back to questions >

*** From Merchant: keep babblin! :) >

*** From Hocuspocus: hehe Ok ... Ill tell you what I think is the deadliest attack >

*** From Jrhillman: Let's say I do bleed off all of my e in a high-g turn trying to get guns on that vulch over 83 (at about 3k) how do I get it back in a hurry and not die?

*** From Hocuspocus: hehehe... probably you dont

*** From Jrhillman: Well, maybe I already knew that and just wanted to see if I was right >

*** From Merchant: bail! :) >

*** From Hocuspocus: best thing you can do is kick rudder down and try to build speed as you.... >

*** From Jrhillman: Bailing sux (can I say that). It takes too long to get back to the ground >

*** From Hocuspocus: ......losen up on the turn Part of the trick is KNOW YOUR AIRPLANE. That way you know when u are close to the edge and wether u can make it or not:) >

*** From Hocuspocus: Ok my favorite attack..... succedes or kills you:) somebody ALWAYS dies:) If I am over an enemy...I like to wait till I am DIRECTLY over em..... I chop throttle, dial full flaps.....and go straight down with speed brakes....Picture this from enemy point of view.... Bogey diving from straight up. What do you do? >

*** From Jrhillman: Roll left and dive? >

*** From Shadownyc: turn into him...loop up at last sec >

*** From Hocuspocus: Ok in order.... >

*** From Hocuspocus: If he dives you just follow him and match his speed + a little Going up is best option, BUT How do you judge how fast I am???? If you blow it, you'll stall in front of my guns. Thing about straight down is that turn rate DOES NOT MATTER......If I am diving on a Zeke I can match any break turn just by rolling... .in direction of turn. If he zooms at right time..... I WEP, and pull flaps and go around. Ill try to make film of this..... but the advantage is you are coming in at an angle that is impossible for him to turn INTO the attack effectivly ...they expect you to be much they try to make you overshoot and you can just pull in behine em err behind

*** From Hocuspocus: thr problem in non airbrake that you build to much speed...and end up under the enemy. This is why a diving attack is PURE E fighting the way I do it. I come down with just enough speed to manuver and not enough to overshoot

*** From Hocuspocus: I pick MY best speed >

*** From Hocuspocus: Twist, when he knows its me and I dont know its him, can nail me every time He uses same technique and can time the zoom perfect : Of course when I know that he knows I pull up and let him stall : Bottom line.... there is no answer

*** From Hocuspocus: Know your plane. Pick you best attitude, altitude and speed and maintain those things! >

*** From Hocuspocus: Questions? >

*** From Shadownyc: what are ur favorite planes? >

*** From Hocuspocus: Ahhh > *** >

*** From Cld: 38 and a26? ;) ***

From Shadownyc: hehe > ***

From Hocuspocus: in order (currently:) ETO: P38, FW, 109 >

From Hocuspocus: A26 is kind aporked right now >

*** From Hocuspocus: in the PAC its the Ki, 38 and F6F >

*** From Hocuspocus: I truely love the Ki..... can run down those damn 51s

*** From Hocuspocus: I hate nitwits that make one pass and then run home

*** From Hotrail: wasnt the cam furball(the one with the A26 ) you flying it? >

*** From Hocuspocus: hehe yes it was Vulture cam >

*** From Hotrail: thats a very good example if everyone here wants to view it. done

*** From Hocuspocus: I have a gunner in that one...Wolfman my wingman

*** From Hocuspocus: I called it Vulture but BB may have renamed it:)

> *** From Hocuspocus: Its in the box tho > Bummer, you have a question? >

*** From Bummer: Yes... >

*** From Hocuspocus: Ahh sorry Bummer misse du

** From Bummer: I missed the first hr, so tell me it this's been covered...

> *** From Bummer: Any energy management words of wisdom about the 109?

*** From Hocuspocus: Noooo I didnt mention 109. Its an odd bird IMO cause it isnt best at anything ...converse it aint bad at anything either. In the 109....the main thing is to try to keep your speed higher than the enemy. against anything other than a Spit you would rather have a high spe ..casue 109 has, effectivly, no flaps... High speed means 200+ > /c

*** From Hocuspocus: You can convert speed into vertical fairly easily in one so the vertical is the element to use. Bad news. Good 38 pilot or equal Spit pilot will win vs a 109

*** From Hocuspocus: good news. Not many good 38 pilots and few good pilots in SPits:

** From Jrhillman: I resemble that remark!

*** From Hocuspocus: hehe practice makes perfect:)

*** From Jrhillman: Practice make for a big bill..

Who has the true advantage in a fight - someone who is high and slow...or someone who is low and fast

*** From Hocuspocus: ok low and fast - no question >

*** From Hotrail: ! > what's your reasoning? (just for grins coz I agree with ya)

*** From Hocuspocus: let me explain > *

** From Merchant: yes do! > yes, please >

*** From Hocuspocus: High fighter dives...low fighter zooms.... they trade places true? > yep > That ideal world..... > *What actually happens is that AT THE MERGE the diver is accelerating: ...while the zoomer is decelerating. Zoomer can whip around and be going back down faster than diver can do oposite

*** From Hocuspocus: Low fast has options: can keep going..... high guy has to dive....can engage... high guy MUST fight High guy has one choice...dive and attack or die

*** From Hocuspocus: Did that answr question?

** From Hotrail: I was just gonna say....hehe ...that the high and slow can get low and fast quick..... but I guess I was wrong again:)

*** From Hocuspocus: no you right....BUT low guy is fast and horizontal...high guy is now low, fast, and POINTED below horizon thats the edge of attitude

*** From Hotrail: if you do not try to drop on the guys head....can you not get on equal ground?

*** From Hocuspocus: Ahhh good question Presumption here is: That E states are EQUAL hight-high=speed-low > examine what happens.... if high guy spirals down, he doesnt get all of E back.....if he just dives he pointed wrong way.... Im assuming that low guy WILL kill him if he dont do SOMETHING

*** From Hocuspocus: any other questions?

***From Hocuspocus: If not We can call it and thursday Ill try to talk about what you can make enemies screw up

*** From Bummer: Are there classes tomorrow and Wed?, or is there a new calendar?

*** From Jrhillman: Thanks HP for the wonderful insights. Now I'll know *why* I'm dying!!! >

*** From Hotrail: Great class DD. Thanks >

*** From Hocuspocus: We're being domesticated!!! > check yer email on the cris side i sent you one

*** From Shadownyc: Field Trip to RT Training!!!!!! >

*** From Bop: Did I miss anything?? >

*** From Hocuspocus: Thxs all for showing! >

*** From Merchant: yes u did!! > Okay, folks - tomorrow night - Ho's Situational awareness class!

*** From Merchant: great stuff DD! >

*** From Hocuspocus: rgr Shebop:) > Wednesday night - Twist and his Focke Wulf!

*** From Bop: Thought DD would just talk about P38. >

*** From Hocuspocus: thxs if you need to ask question email me:) >

*** From Hocuspocus: hahaha >

*** From Merchant: cc >

*** From Cld: being awake helps > Thursday night the second half of this class!

*** From Hocuspocus: Pyro teaching 38 Hrrrmmph! > That's what he chose, DD. > He took it before you. >

*** From Hocuspocus: he pretty good:) GF after all > Thanks DD - very good calls, enjoyed it. > class even > *** From Hocuspocus: cc by all >

*** Hocuspocus just exited the teleconference. > END LOG